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Gaz
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Re: Lets talk about Dragoons

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:13 pm

Hello Gaz and welcome back to the forum!

This is a very good discussion point to bring up indeed! Certainly from the point of view of many players and veterans of the server that the dragoons have always been an issue on that map. Not only would this occur on that map, but the newer hybrid inf and cav map, Custom Map 16.

It does influence the players fun when they are being chased around the map all day by some bloke trying to shoot them from horseback, just to be shot at the end, after running all that distance to try and avoid it. However, those players who shoot from horse back may find it fun to do so (seeing the fun factor from my point of view is impossible as I, personally, hate dragoons doing that), so finding a compromise for both people would be quite difficult as of course we can't please everyone. 

It is a good idea to be able to prevent them from FoH, as then it forces them to get off the horse to fire, as to which many dragoons do to try and increase their accuracy anyway. This means they have the flexibility of firing with a musket and use their sword much like a normal cavalry member, obviously having the bonus of having a weapon to fire too. It also is logical if we were going for Historical accuracy as, realistically, you can't fire from horseback at full speed with full powder due to the kick back. But let's be honest here, the game isn't exactly close to historically accurate due to the fact you could hit a guy 6 times in the back of the head, and he could turn and 1 tap you in the foot. And of course, there's my screenshots on Steam showing the many "flaws" and "wonderful opportunities" this game enjoys to serve to me. 

Putting a limit on the class works, but preventing FoH makes more since to me than lowering the number to, as per your example, 15% of the team. For discussion sake, lowering it to 15% rather than implementing the no FoH would prevent the many questions of "How do you fire on horse?" or "Why can't I fire on horse anymore?". It would also mean the class is locked to a certain amount so there wouldn't be 50+ dragoons chasing one innocent defending cav, this means that they might actually run to the flag rather than hopelessly chasing a hussar. For example, if they were a hussar chasing a hussar they would generally break off because they can tell they ain't catching up to the guy. But, if a lot of people were playing dragoon they would just chase them to the ends of the earth to try and catch them cause there's nothing preventing them from just aiming and chasing, much like the Hussar example.

I'd like to hear more from other players or staff so more posts below this would be great! I'm thinking of posting a poll at some stage to allow players to vote on what they think, but I want to hear from other people here first before doing that. Apologies for the long response as well, just bringing some points and examples up of the scenarios.

Thanks for reading!
Hey Gretel!

You have to keep in mind that a medium horse, all be it slower, is not actually that much slower than a hussar's horse, so they can keep up with a defending cav for a fair while. Not to mention their accuracy while mounted is actually quite good considering they are moving at full speed. 

I only gave the idea of putting a cap on the unit to give a spectrum of options for people to explore on this thread as to jog the mind. Also it would come across as a demand if i only gave one solution to this, so i gave two.

I've only ever played custom map 16 once and to me defending cav is quite hit or miss because of all the stuff in the way, though i wont make too much of an opinion on the map as ive only played it once. Also, if you make any changes to anything on any server people are always going to ask "Oh why can i do this" or "How can i do this". Some people will love the change and some people will hate it, its as you said. You cant please everyone. 
 
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Strategie99
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Re: Lets talk about Dragoons

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:21 pm

I must state, that I dislike being shot or more often my horse from a dragoon. I don't often experience being chased by them, but when it does happen, it's very annoying.

Regarding the solutions: I think that having to dismount does take a lot of flexiability from the dragoons and weaken them significantly. I would advocate more for shooting only when standing still with horse, since they can still do relatively well skirmish. But whether these ideas are possible must Caesim say.

Setting the limit down is probably the easier solution The question is how much this matters. If there are just 10% dragoons, but they are all at your horse's back, that wouldn't help much
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Gretel
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Re: Lets talk about Dragoons

Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:36 pm

Hey again Gaz,

I've spoke briefly with QuickOne on Steam and we're up for placing a limit on the amount of dragoons that are able to be chosen on maps with cavalry. We've settled on a limit of 20% in mean time, but we're willing to go lower / higher depending if the limit in place actually makes practical sense on the server (if people actually reach the limit or not, that is). Maybe in the future it could be a possibility to prevent them from FoH, as I, personally, am not against enabling that. But I can't guarantee that, so don't hold my word on it. 

I hope this works in some way to help with the issue, and I must apologise if the outcome doesn't meet your expectations. It's quite difficult to accommodate for every payers needs, and we need to think of new and old players alike when implementing something like this. I greatly appreciate your feedback and maybe through more discussion here from other players and other admins we could come to a better conclusion on what peoples opinions are on this matter, but judging by the amount who has responded to this thread I can't determine an awful lot from a majority's standpoint. 
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WoeskiTheHusky
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Re: Lets talk about Dragoons

Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:34 pm

Dragoons can only shoot once and than they have to reload which they have to stand still for and makes them an easy target. I think it's balanced. I mean the defenders have a lot of other advantages.
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Gaz
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Re: Lets talk about Dragoons

Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:25 pm

Dragoons can only shoot once and than they have to reload which they have to stand still for and makes them an easy target. I think it's balanced. I mean the defenders have a lot of other advantages.
Most dragoons chase cav around the map presenting and then firing. Most dont reload as they just go to die on the flag so they have a reloaded gun to then proceed to do the same. What im saying is that your point of "they have to reload which they have to stand still for and makes them an easy target." which only works if they actually bother to reload at all, which in most cases they dont. Yes they only have 1 shot, like every other gun in the game however it only takes 1 shot to insta kill a horse or a player like every other class. The key difference is that a line infantry, rifle or light infantry cant chase you around the map for 10mins without loosing interest. 

As i believe Gretel said, " if they were a hussar chasing a hussar they would generally break off because they can tell they ain't catching up to the guy. But, if a lot of people were playing dragoon they would just chase them to the ends of the earth to try and catch them cause there's nothing preventing them from just aiming and chasing" Which happens a lot. I would recommend that you try defending more than once to understand my view point on this.
 
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Gaz
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Re: Lets talk about Dragoons

Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:26 pm

Hey again Gaz,

I've spoke briefly with QuickOne on Steam and we're up for placing a limit on the amount of dragoons that are able to be chosen on maps with cavalry. We've settled on a limit of 20% in mean time, but we're willing to go lower / higher depending if the limit in place actually makes practical sense on the server (if people actually reach the limit or not, that is). Maybe in the future it could be a possibility to prevent them from FoH, as I, personally, am not against enabling that. But I can't guarantee that, so don't hold my word on it. 

I hope this works in some way to help with the issue, and I must apologise if the outcome doesn't meet your expectations. It's quite difficult to accommodate for every payers needs, and we need to think of new and old players alike when implementing something like this. I greatly appreciate your feedback and maybe through more discussion here from other players and other admins we could come to a better conclusion on what peoples opinions are on this matter, but judging by the amount who has responded to this thread I can't determine an awful lot from a majority's standpoint. 
Cheers Gretel for taking the time of day to bother with this discussion, unlike alot of the staff team it seems nowadays. :D
 
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LordTarvu
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Re: Lets talk about Dragoons

Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:40 pm

Why are defending rambos getting a buff? I think the whole point of the fort is to stay inside it. It's supposed to be difficult to go outside it.
 
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WoeskiTheHusky
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Re: Lets talk about Dragoons

Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:29 pm

But you forgot about my other point, the defenders have many other adventages. So I still think it's balanced.
Like on on custom map 6 I rarely win as attacker it's really hard to get inside with cavarly and if you dismount you are
in danger to get shot.
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Ajay Ghale
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Re: Lets talk about Dragoons

Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:34 pm

Tbh, I don't really care about the limit, But I do know that some of people are not a huge fan with it.

I do agree with WoeskiTheHusky on this one though, defenders have alot more advantages on the cavalry map. And it is supposed to be hard for the defenders to get out of the fort as what LordTarvu said.
 
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Loifas
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Re: Lets talk about Dragoons

Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:20 am

For the more recent replies of this topic (the ones I disagree with). Firstly, throughout history the side attacking any fort typically had higher losses than the defenders, because taking a fort can be costly as defenders will always have an advantage over the attackers. That's the whole premise of the siege gamemode. For it not to be easy for the attackers. Some maps are more difficult than others, but attackers can always win on a good map and in the end I think it mostly comes down to the players on the teams. Each map has different ways/methods of taking a fort. Sitting shooting as dragoons, riflemen etc. and not going into the fort is not an effective way to take the flag and win the round. We've all seen that scenario happen. You may not think to yourself, 'but dragoons will shoot then go in', from the hours I've played so far dragoon players are the type to back peddle as a rifleman after they've aimed at you for 20 seconds and missed their shot and stay as far away from melee as possible, that or they'll pull out a sabre briquet for melee against a bayonet instead of using their own bayonet. Some dragoons will go in of course. Just from my personal experience of watching, most do not.

"it is supposed to be hard for the defenders to get out of the fort" It's not about how hard it should be to get out of the fort, it's more about how hard it is actually staying alive outside of the fort. Is it hard staying alive outside of the fort compared to being in the fort? Yes. Getting out of a fort can be difficult depending on how far the attackers have pushed and what map it is. This is how it's always been, nothing has changed in this regard, it's high risk for potential high reward. You are more likely to die, lose a life and gain nothing when going out from your safe fortifications. People like to do it anyway as they need action instead of sitting and shooting. When it came to custom map 6 it was extremely irritating to enjoy doing this as any defending cavalry going out against the mass would have to deal with dragoons breathing down your neck like a swarm of honey bees thirsty for pollen.

Sorry to quote on a 2 week old post but, "Dragoons can only shoot once and than they have to reload which they have to stand still for and makes them an easy target. I think it's balanced. I mean the defenders have a lot of other advantages." If you've played minisiege for long enough and watched dragoons, they'll chase to the ends of the earth, shoot, then gallop to the edge of the map away from danger to then reload and then do the same stuff. It is extremely tedious to deal with. If you try to get close to them, they'll (mostly) just keep running away into their own team, which following is suicide as there'd be more dragoons sitting aiming to point blank you etc. (Thank goodness there's a limit on them now.) Anyone is an easy target if they stay still for you, but most people will leg it if they're in clear danger of getting shot.

"Why are defending rambos getting a buff? I think the whole point of the fort is to stay inside it. It's supposed to be difficult to go outside it." Defending "rambos" are getting no buff at all, as I've said before, going out of the fort means you are more likely to die and gain nothing or die and gain little. On the cav map the previous statement stands strong, people still have to go against masses of cavalry, which more lancers and heavy cav are popping up since the limit, meaning that your play style to go against these different types of units has to change quickly when you go from fighting, lets say for example a hussar one second and then a lancer the next. If you are caught off gaurd/don't adapt you will die very quickly. Also you can always been easily overwhelmed by players, just like in any other map. Not everyone can stand in a fortress, melee and/or shoot from there the whole/half round. I for one can't and doing so is extremely boring. People have different play styles. When it comes to custom map 6, it is more focused on cavalry melee combat for attackers as it is unique compared to the other minisiege maps that are infantry focused (excluding arty from all).

I don't believe there is anything wrong with this change, fits right in with the game mode and the spirit of the map (from my perspective). I'm very glad Gaz brought it up as it was long overdue for something to be done about the mass amount of dragoons you'd typically find.

And with that, I'm getting out of here again.

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